two records in Polish that need clarification

[os2hugh]

Greetings Genealodzy friends,


I came a across two metric records in Polish that I was curious to have help clarifying some information (No whole translation needed)


Firstly I have the marriage record(s) of my 3rd great grandather Marcin and his older sister Katarzyna. They were both born is Suderwa parish and there parents were Tomasz and Marianna Michalkiewicz on their 1807 and 1810 baptism records. The confusion starts when I look at both there marriage records.

They were both apparently married the same day the 8th of November 1831 Marcin's record #25 her's on the next page record #29. what is confusing is even though they are siblings of the same marriage ones mother is listed as Marianna Niewiadomska and the other Marianna Żemaydź?

Is this a cerical error or confusion? Which is their real mothers surname?


Secondly,
Also in 1831 their father Tomasz passed away I am just looking for the basic info in this record cause of death, surviving children etc. His wife here is listed as Krystyna (He remarried in 1824 after his wife Marianna's death in 1823)


Here's the links to Marcin #25:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... M6-3?i=786


and Katarzyna #29:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... TF-1?i=787


This is Tomasz death record #14:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... C-G?i=1026


Thank you very much,

Hugh

[Klim_Jerzy]

Here is a hypothesis. HIgh mortality rates among women at childbirth could account for this. First wife died giving birth to a child that survived. The husband typically remarried within months, as he needed a woman to take care of his chldren and the farm. Two years later a child is born by the second wife.
Marianna is the most common name at that time, so it is not surprising that he could have married two women with the same name.

As far as Krystyna is concerned, there is possibility of clerical error, or a third wife. Two of my ancestors in the XIX cent. had three wives, so I am not that surprised.
And of course, clerical errors abound, so more verification would be called for. Check death records from this period.

[os2hugh]

Jerzy,


Thanks for your response, I looked through the metrics for the period in question here's how it works out.

1. Tomasz Michalkiewicz on 29 October 1805 married Marianna Brazis a widow. He is listed a "mlodzian" resided in Siderance.

2. 7 October 1806 Tomasz and Marianna give birth to a son Adam he dies the same day. He died in Siderance Suderwa parish.

3. 1 December 1807 Tomasz and Marianna five birth to a daughter Katarzyna[ in village of Siderance.

4. 22 October 1810 Tomasz and Marianna give birth to son Marcin in the village of komaryszki.

5. 13 December 1823 Marianna Michalkiewicz dies in the village of Zawiasy aged 45 (Zawiasy is next to Komaryszki near Neris river)

6. 10 February 1824 Tomasz Michalkiewicz a widower marries Krystyna Wolowicz in Suderwa resided in village of Komaryszki

7. 29 April 1831 Tomasz Michalkiewicz dies in village of komaryszki (this record is in previous post please translate if you can) and leaves behind Katarzyna and other children (Can't make out the names)

This leaves the two marriage records, there are no records between Tomasz and Marianna's 1805 marriage and her death in 1823 that are her death record. This means Marcin and Katarzyna are siblings. So the question now becomes is this indeed a clerical error?? What is Marcin and Katarzyna's mothers name Marianna Niewiadomska or Marianna Żemaydź?

I probably will never know for sure

Hugh

[Sochers]

Hi Hugh,

Tomasz died after receiving sacraments, due to old age (was 69 years old). He left two sons (Marcin and Tomasz), and daughter - Katarzyna. Cant recognize the name of the priest and the name of the cementary tough.

BR,
Marcin

[sirdaniel]

Hello Hugh!

Bear in mind Tomasz Michalkiewicz had son also Tomasz (info from death record). Tomasz sr was born around 1763, adding 21 years gives deducted date of first marriage 1784. When Tomasz would be his first son, and adding another 22 years, deducted marriage of Tomasz jr would be 1806. It not unrealistic that Tomasz sr wife was giving birth at around same time as well his dauther in law.

Concerning Niewiadomski surname, i believe this would be simple error, especially taking into account same date of marriage or at least same time writing of these records.

Lets find other records and match them to make sure Niewiadomski is an error indeed.

PS: młodzian means young/youngster, of course by the standards of that time

Cheers.

[os2hugh]

Thanks,

I was thinking that him being a youngster in 1805 was a little of base, but i guess the death record could be wrong. I've found death records that listed an age (usually older then the actual person was, sometimes younger) and then found their actual birth record and the age differential was staggering (5 to 10 to 12 years were not uncommon). Because of the closeness of Siderance, Zawiesy and Komarysziki I have no doubt this is the same group.

If he was in fact born in 1862/3 that would make him 45 at his daughters birth in 1807 and 48 at the time of my direct ancestors birth. This is possible but how likely is it?? Now if you subtract 5 years as in a clerical error the ages 40 and 43 make much more sense. I will look through more records of those named Niewiadomski and Zemaydz to see if I can come to any conclusions.

Hugh

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have an update although it actually adds to the confusion rather then help solve the mystery.

I looked through the birth and death registers from 1824 (when Tomasz married Krystyna) and 1831 (When Tomasz died).

I found two new births in the years between the marriage and death!!

Two sons to be exact:

1. Jozef born 13 March 1828 in Komaryszki. #30

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... HZ-F?i=229

2. Jerzy born 7 April 1829 also in Komaryszki. #19

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... HK-G?i=943

Thanks to your checking the death record of Tomasz, I know that it lists him as having 3 surving children: Marcin and Katarzyna- who are accounted for. and Tomasz (who is not accounted for).

Now add to this two other sons who as of the 1831 death of their father were not listed as surving children, yet there is not record of there deaths from their births up to that point??

The confusion goes on..........

Then again, I admit I do love playing history detective

Hugh

[Klim_Jerzy]

In case no one has mentioned this option, here is another idea. The surname Niewiadomska (unknown) was often used at that time for people whose origin was unknown. They could have been orphans or their parents had no surname, a situation that was not uncommon in the XVIII th century. My bet is that Marianna did not know or have a surname at the time of marriage. How her other surname surfaced later will remain a mystery. Good luck with your search.

Regarding the term "mlodzian", it was a reference to the marital status and not age. Thus, a mlodzian could have been 50 years of age, providing he was not married previously.

[Dabkowski_Grzegorz]

For the record: Marianna Michalkiewicz dies in Zawiasy on the 13th day of September, not December.

― Grzegorz

[os2hugh]

Grzegorz thank you for your clarification on the date, sometimes I don't look as carefully as I should. I have noticed looking at the marriage records that the name Niewiadomski appears in not only my two ancestors records #25 and #29 but also in #24 and #30

-#24 Marianna Niewiadomska mother of groom Jozef Gasinski.

-#25 Marianna Niewiadomska mother of groom Marcin Michalkiewicz.

-#29 Marianna Niewiadomska mother of groom Wincenty Markowski

-#30 Krystyna Niewiadomska mother of groom Jozef Wysocski.

As has been posited earlier perhaps the women had no surname or didn't know the surname. But where #25 groom and #29 bride are siblings yet there mother has different names this makes me think of clergy or scribe error. It seems that maybe after writing #24 the recorder simply wrote the same name in the next record by accident. Then in the entry for his sisters marriage got it right, or perhaps confused the bride and grooms mothers names in record #29??

What's everyone elses thoughts??

Hugh