PPS political convicts, IPN, research in Warsaw

[Ann_Nn]

Witam,

I can read Polish, so please feel free to write me in whichever language you prefer.

I'm trying to find some information about my grandfather who was a PPS political activist and a teacher / principal in pre-WWII Warszawa. He did not survive the war.
I'm especially trying to find information regarding his address and where he taught.

So far I've tried searching for birth and marriage records, information from books of residency, draft registrations but the reply I got from the archives was that either no information was found or that I don't have enough information for the archive to perform research (such as in the case of notary records, ID cards, passports, Zandarmerii records etc').

I sent letters to the following archives and institutions: APW, AGAD, AAN, ZIH, ITS, X Pawilon, Archiwum Kuratorium Oświaty, but each reply was "Nie odnalezione". I also contacted the PCK but they did not send a reply as of yet.

I was wondering if perhaps I should also send a letter to the IPN, even though they told me that they don't have much documentation from the pre-war and wartime period. Do you know if I should cite a specific database or document collection in the inquiry or whether it's appropriate to just write them the name(s) I'm looking for?

I also tried to search just about every genealogy related website I could find but it also didn't lead anywhere. The only possible lead I got was from this book about the PPS:

http://www.sbc.org.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=84093

I was able to find my grandfather's name under the list of convicts. Do you know if perhaps there's a way to learn more about the persons mentioned in this list?

In addition, my aunt survived the war and continued to reside in Warsaw. Do you know if perhaps there's some sort of post-war documentation about her which might contain detailed information about the father? I was unable to find any pre-WWII documentation about her like survivor cards etc', possibly because I don't know her pre-war surname. Do you know if maybe there's a way to learn more about her pre-war surname or address via post-war documentation? From the IPN perhaps?

I would like to also ask if perhaps you know where I can find documentation regarding the children who resided in the Janusz Korczak orphanage, if at all possible?

Any advice or suggestions regarding this matters would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Z poważaniem,

Ann

[Sroczyński_Włodzimierz]

"I can read Polish, so please feel free to write me in whichever language you prefer. "
I od razu cieplej;)
...więc
Najskuteczniej przy tego typu postach jest podawać o kogo chodzi.

"teacher / principal in pre-WWII Warszawa."
jeśli dyrektor to duża szansa, że figuruje w książce adresowej, telefonicznej
nauczyciel - mniejsza, ale też jest
kwerendy w zachowanych aktach szkół
w ZNP (Związek Nauczycielstwa Polskiego)
gorzej jak w szkole wyznaniowej/religijnej uczył - tj nie powszechnej a czysto religijnej
ale to raczej wykluczone- albo PPS (i inne socjalizmy) albo cheder

" information regarding his address and where he taught. "
szkoła po szkole do sprawdzenia , ale zacząć możnaby od tych bardziej prawdopodobnych

"I was able to find my grandfather's name under the list of convicts. Do you know if perhaps there's a way to learn more about the persons mentioned in this list? "
raczej zbyt ogólnie - pytaj o konkretną (z imienia i nazwiska) osobę

"In addition, my aunt survived the war and continued to reside in Warsaw. "
no to jesteśmy prawie w domu
siostra ojca lub matki przeżyła, ojciec/matka też (prawdopodobnie), kiedyś mieszkali z ojcem (poszukiwaną osobą), od tego bym zaczął - od ustalenia adresów ojca/matki i siostry (wspomnianej ciotki)

" From the IPN perhaps?"
raczej nie, ale to niewykluczone

jeśli jedno/dwoje/ więcej dzieci przeżyło to pytanie o żonę poszukiwanego nie jest do pominięcia - co z nią
czy Ci którzy przezyli nie wystawili aktu zgonu ojca/męża
czy nie wystąpili do sądu o stwierdzenie śmierci/uznanie za zmarłego
czy nie przeprowadzali postępowania spadkowego

"I would like to also ask if perhaps you know where I can find documentation regarding the children who resided in the Janusz Korczak orphanage, if at all possible? "
z jakich lat?
warto skontaktować z "Korczakarium" (oddział Muzeum Warszawy) - bo o tym "domu Korczaka" mówimy - tak?

nie jest to proste, a dodatkowo utrudnione brakiem informacji kogo szukamy.
W zasadzie możesz liczyć na pomoc wtedy, gdy podasz znane Ci informacje lub te, które możesz znać
imiona, nazwiska, kiedy dzieci się rodziły (jedno z nich było/jest Twoim rodzicem), jakie były ich losy wojenne/powojenne (to w danych ich dotyczących może być przedwojenny adres, wspólny z adresem ojca)

ale skoro "I can read Polish, so please feel free to write me in whichever language you prefer. " - tj w języku dziadka , a może i którego z rodziców czytasz - to i bez danych warto próbować pomóc, jako docenienie podtrzymania "ducha";)
i nie obawiaj się pisać (choćby fragmentami) po polsku:)

pozdrawiam, czekam na dalsze informacje - uzupełnienie kolejnym postem

PS poza pomocą j.w.: możliwe jet zlecenie poszukiwań wyspecjalizowanej firmie..jeśli "archiwa poległy" to może czas na tych, którzy (no fakt odpłatnie) właśnie w tym się specjalizują (np udowadnianiu obywatelstwa, przede wszystkim Polaków wyznania mojżeszowego, bo taki zapotrzebowania rynek zgłasza)

[Ann_Nn]

Szanowny Panie,

Dziękuję bardzo for your detailed answer and willingness to assist on this matter.

I tried to search the phonebooks and school directories. I was actually able to find his name in one phonebook (listed as a private teacher), but it was a rather old phonebook and if it was related to him it surely wasn't his last pre-war address. In addition, APW didn't have information about this address in księgi meldunkowe.

I think I called the ZNP previously and they told me they don't hold information about pre-WWII teachers, but maybe they were just trying to get me off the line or maybe the person answering the phone didn't know about these files. I will try it again, thank you very much for this suggestion.

Regarding the PPS convicts list, I tried to enclose the screenshots from the book to the post, but it didn't work. I will try to figure it out later.
I contacted the AAN regarding their collection "Stowarzyszenie Byłych Więźniów Politycznych w Polsce" but according to them, they couldn't find my grandfather's name there.

Regarding my aunt, It's a bit complicated as she didn't have any children and I don't know who her heirs are, so I'm not sure as to who I should contact in order to find this information. I don't have information regarding her last pre-war address or wartime location (she was married so it wasn't the same address of my grandfather or grandmother). I know her post-war address was Ul. Mrszalkowska but I'm not sure about the Nr. My grandmother's / mother's last pre-WWII address was also not present in księgi meldunkowe.

With regards to the Janusz Korczak orphanage, I heard that my cousins were there during the war (after being separated from their parents), but I only know their surname so I guess it would be rather complicated to look for information about them but I will ask the "Korczakarium" anyway.

With regards the genealogical firms, it would be a viable option assuming I won't be able to find the information I'm looking for after trying all the relevant archives. Do you have a particular firm you can recommend? If so, please send me a private message.

Jeszcze raz dziękuję za odpowiedź i za chęć do pomocy w tej sprawie. Bardzo to doceniam.

Z poważaniem,

Ann

[Sroczyński_Włodzimierz]

" but it was a rather old phonebook "
a dokładnie? z którego roku?
"In addition, APW didn't have information about this address in księgi meldunkowe. "
oprócz ksiąg w APW są jeszcze księgi w urzędzie miasta
vide: http://genealodzy.pl/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-5607.phtml

"My grandmother's / mother's last pre-WWII address was also not present in księgi meldunkowe."
to wyjaśnia, tj ucina dywagacje, ogranicza możliwości, dobrze, że sprawdziłaś

"With regards to the Janusz Korczak orphanage, I heard that my cousins were there during the war"
a to już inna historia, bo był więcej niż jeden
"ten słynny w Getcie" był trochę wtórny - po przymusowym przesiedleniu

ale nazwisko mogłabyś jednak podać:)
niekoniecznie swoje - poszukiwanej osoby, imię też:) (ew. imiona)
jakiś typowany rok urodzenia?
są bardzo niedoceniane i rzadko wykorzystywane zasoby, szczególnie cenne dla wyznania mojżeszowego (z uwagi na braki w aktach stanu cywilnego) np
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... PowWojsk_/
http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/sezam. ... 4&dir4=asc
http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/sezam. ... 4&dir4=asc
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... Fragmenty/
czy szerzej:
http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/sezam. ... 1&szukaj=1
a także:
http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/sezam. ... y_id=79991
i wiele innych (akta sądowe)
wreszcie: gazety i czasopisma. Obok polityki, sensacji, "wysokiej kultury" edukacja też się w nich pojawiała.
Część jest on-line, nawet po procesie OCR, czyli prosta (w miarę) do przeszukania.
Wiek (rok/lata urodzenia) dzieci też pozwoliłby zawęzić poszukiwania

obok archiwów, które wspomniałaś, jest jeszcze zasób archiwów wojskowych . Nie ma bardzo dużo o rezerwistach, ale skoro był nauczycielem (tzn tak zakładamy), to prawdopodobnie na studiach (jeśli je kończył w II RP) miał przeszkolenie, po studiach dalszy ciąg. Może (choć nie musi, bo o rezerwistach niewiele) "być coś w wojsku".

Może wiadomo gdzie dzieci chodziły do szkoły? Do jakiej? Informacje o rodzicach były w dziennikach. Etc etc

Wiele rzeczy zostało zniszczonych i nie jest do odtworzenia, ale jednak sporo jest. Tylko rzadko z nich się korzysta. Niesłusznie są zapominane.

No i pytanie otwarte o powojenne (uznanie za zmarłego, spadkowe etc).
A jakie informacje Cię w ogóle interesują? Ściśle związane z PPS-em? czy szerzej? Czy tez podstawowe masz (imię, nazwisko, dane żony, miejsce, rok urodzenia etc)

pozdrawiam

[Gruszczynski_Wojciech]

Jesli był nauczycielem to warto poszperać po spisach nauczycieli . Przez google łatwo znaleźć taki spis . Z którego roku ? Jakie nazwisko?

[Ann_Nn]

Szanowny Panie, Gruszczyński Wojciech,

I have tried to look in online databases, books, directories related to teachers (among others) but I was not able to find anything relevant except for what I already wrote in my previous post, but thank you nevertheless for the advice. Dziękuję bardzo.

Szanowny Panie, Sroczyński Włodzimierz,

Thank you for the detailed explanation regarding the additional resources.

The address book is from 1908.

I don't know which school my mother or aunt went to. I know that my mother was a member in "Gordonia" (Jewish socialist movement) but I don't know whether they kept any records.
My mother was born in 1918 (in Warszawa), my aunt in 1908. The birth records could not be found, according to USC and APW respectively. My grandfather was born in 1884 (probably in Poland).

With regards to their names, I understand it could be useful but I would prefer not post it on the forums at the moment. I can give you further details about them via a private message, if that's alright with you.

By military archives do you mean the CAW? If so, according to them no information was found about my grandfather in their files. But
actually that's not entirely true, I was able to indirectly find information about my grandfather through the CAW.
During WWII, My father served as an officer in the Polish army divisions formed in the former USSR (my parents were deported to Komi republic), in these files there was a section dedicated "the officer's wife and family", from there I was able to learn that he was born in 1884 and that he was a political activist in the PPS (I didn't know that before). I guess sometimes you can find information in unexpected places.

Regarding the information I'm interested in, I feel that perhaps I should have been clearer in my previous post, I'll try to clarify- the documentation I'm looking for in particular is as follows: any information regarding my grandfather's address and / or any document bearing his signature (or at least his hand writing).
The source isn't really relevant, it could be PPS records, Zandarmerii records, notary records, birth records, school records or even a letter written by him to my aunt. The type of document is of little importance, I'm just trying not to leave any stones unturned.
I hope it's a little bit clearer now.

Thank you again for your answers, they're really insightful and helpful and I appreciate it very much.

Z poważaniem,

Ann

[Sroczyński_Włodzimierz]

spróbuj poszukać w innej książce adresowej niż z 1908
ew. może telefonicznej
telefonicznych wiele (Cedergren, PAST), ale mało on-line
"podstawowa" adresowa to raczej 1930, uzupełniająco telefoniczna 1938/1939

ur. 1908 i 1918 w Warszawie. Czy były inne dzieci? czasem zgłoszenie bywa po wielu latach
"konwersja" tj chrzest wchodzi w grę?
a może wiesz do jakich szkół chodziła w Warszawie? albo jej siostra?

tak, CAW - teraz pod inną nazwą
nie jest to bardzo zaskakujące, że oficer LWP przedstawiał życiorys, losy członków rodziny żony. Wątpliwości mogą być na ile jego opis odpowiada rzeczywistości, na ile był kreacją.

a może przy małżeństwie rodziców odpisy aktów urodzeń nowozaślubionych (aneksy, akta zbiorowe)? lub inne dokumenty potwierdzające urodzenie w 1918 w Warszawie?

a ciotka ur 1908? zamężna przed wojną?:) jej małżeństwo z odpisem aktu urodzenia, adresem - miejscem zamieszkania , gdy brała ślub?

Więcej bez nazwisk, imion będzie trudno.
Forum wymianą informacji stoi, z zasady:) Wymianą, czyli obustronnym ruchem:)
Ale rozumiem, nie wszystkim i nie zawsze chodzi o znalezienie. Wskazywanie źródeł to też ważne. Może nawet ważniejsze i bardziej pożyteczne pokazać gdzie, pomóc szerzej niż znaleźć.
pozdrawiam

[piotr_nojszewski]

Dear Ann,

As I understand you looked online eg using genealogyindexer.org so he is not on the indexed lists of teachers but the list typically cover only non-primary schools. Remember that OCR is not always perfect

There are two important factors for your search: name nad confession/religion.
Do you have ANY written proof (document) that the name used before the II WW was the same as after war?
Do you know their religion?

Some people changed their names during the war and never used the real name after the war.

I would suggest following sources:
as you mentioned Komi look here
http://www.dlibra.karta.org.pl/dlibra/d ... t?id=11374

For a teacher and signature look here
http://deklaracja.genealodzy.pl/
But not all the volumes are indexed !
look here for volumes covering Warsaw
http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/egwinv/egww.html
I thing the rest in in the Library of Congress if I'm not wrong.

If your ancestors were religious Jews and teachers they could also work in "unofficial" non-registered school. This also happened.

A source mentioned before was notary records. They quite often have personal indexes so looking for the name is not that difficult.

Another source is the set of documents in the records kept for people who received Personal ID in early 50'. This could include a detailed CV. This works for some people who survived the War.

I think only post war Gordonia records exist in ŻiH but maybe its worth to try there?

As after joining EU receiving Polish citizenship become more popular some people specialize in finding traces of ancestors esp Jewish ancestors. Some sources require research in the archive so you have to bear the costs anyway.

[Markowski_Maciej]

Both, my grandfather and grandmother from my father side were teachers at Warsaw high schools pre II WW. Therefore, I am trying to track their career in books on schools where they were or could be a teachers. Several “Gimnazium” or “Liceum” have monographies with lists of teachers and pupils. If you are interested, I can check in books which I have at home. In a such a case, please feel free to send me PM

[Sroczyński_Włodzimierz]

A tu przykłady dokumentacji szkolnej, dzienniki klasowe:
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... Przyklady/
z próbkami pisma nauczycieli, ale bez zbiorów dokumentów pracowników

usunąłem imiona i nazwiska urodzonych po 1916

[Ann_Nn]

Szanowny Panie, Piotr Nojszewski,

Thank you for your detailed reply.

My grandfather was (non-orthodox) Jewish, and so were the other family members from my maternal side.
I don't have any pre-WWII documentation about them.

I searched the "deklaracja" related material previously but was unable to find anything relevant. I searched only the material

available online though.

With regards to Karta, I should probably clarify that my grandfather wasn't deported to Komi (only my parents).

With regards to the names being changed, that's a very valid point. In my case for example, after receiving the ZIH documentation, I noticed that my mother had an additional name which was not known to me, and as it turns out her Karta records were indexed using only

that name. If I didn't know about that additional name I may have overlooked this documentation (at least initially). This name was omitted from any of her more recent documentation, and I never heard anyone mentioning it.

For those searching for documentation about their (USSR deported) ancestors, I would also suggest:

http://www.indeksrepresjonowanych.pl/in ... wanie.html

Also on that note of names and spelling, if I may provide some advice for those starting their research about their grandparents, I would also suggest you also try to find your uncles' and aunts' documentation. In my case, researching my paternal side (also from warszawa), I noticed that my uncle spelled the name of my grandfather (much) differently than my father and also wrote an additional name which was not known to me. Searching only and exactly by the spelling provided by my father wouldn't have provided any documentation, however, by using the names provided by my uncle I was easily able to find my grandfather's birth record, RHA business

records, information from address books, phonebooks and business directories, in addition to my grandparents' marriage record which

allowed me to learn the names of all of my great grandparents, and subsequently even the names of my great great great great grandparents in a particular instance.

With regards to the personal ID, do you mean "dowód osobisty"? If so, according to APW nothing was found.
Post-WWII gordonia records would be irrelevant in my case.

Thanks for the explanation regarding the indexing of notary records.

I would consider hiring a researcher, but only as a last resort. I like the DIY approach better, I think it lets you gain some additional insight and knowledge, but eventually I may have to hire someone to visit the archives personally.

Szanowny Panie, Włodzimierz Sroczyński,

With regards to the address / phone books, I only searched online databases (namely genealogyindexer), I'll try to also search other sources.

There were other children but I don't know when they were born. APW and USC told me they won't be able provide research without accurate information. I know that the registrations may occur well after the actual event but they were only willing to search 1908 and 1918 (in the case of my aunt and mother).
All the information I have regarding my mother and aunt is from post-WWII documentation (other than what they told me, of course).
As I wrote previously, I don't know the names of the schools my mother or aunt went to. I vaguely recall something about "Ekonomiczna szkoła", but that's all.
Regarding "Konwersja"- not as far as I know.
I heard that during the war my aunt stayed in Poland (in hiding) but that's all I know about her wartime whereabouts.

I would have searched for my aunt's pre-WWII marriage record, but I don't have any information about it so can't be searched (at least not by the USC research service). Do you think maybe there could be some post-WWII documentation which may contain such information?

She remarried after the war, I don't know when but I do know the name of her husband. Perhaps her post-war marriage record can provide details about her previous marriage? Or some other information that could help find her original pre-WWII records?

With regards to publishing the names, I understand, and respect this viewpoint.

Thank you also for providing the examples of teacher's documentation, I didn't find my grandfather's name there but it was interesting nonetheless.

Dziękuję i pozdrawiam,

Ann

[Sroczyński_Włodzimierz]

może któryś z linków w temacie szkolno-nauczycielskim pomoże
http://genealodzy.pl/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-7843.phtml

[Ann_Nn]

Thank you for the additional link, and also for the detailed explanations and insight. You've greatly contributed to my understanding of the various research possibilities. Serdeczne dziękuję.

Pozdrawiam.